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My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

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All last season when we looking for a baseball coach, I remember very strongly the point being made that MSU
is a top 10 program in the country. Well with the finish of the CWS yesterday, I decided to try and devise a way to
rank the top college programs STRICTLY based upon the on-field history.

I started with purely NCAA Regional Appearances which we have 28, which a tie for 14th.

Texas 53
FSU 47
Miami 38
OK St 37
USC 36
Clemson 34
ASU 33
St Johns 31
CSF 31
Fresno St 31
Oklahoma 31
Arizona 30
Minnesota 29
MSU 28
Stanford 28

Then I figured the 3 key things to start with were # of Reg App, # of CWS App, # of National Championships.
The key next is to find a appropriate way to weight those values to make them meaningful. I was toying with values of 1-3-5 or 1-5-10
for the fields. Ultimately once I get an appropriate value there, I would love to then go back in and add a discount based on how recent the event was in range, 5 years, 10, 20 or more.

I'd love to hear some insight about the best way to weigh the weight of certain components and the years they happened
One situation I have come upon when comparing teams is Clemson vs Fresno St, using the fields of # of reg app, # of cws app, # of NC's
Clemson 34-11-0
Fresno St 31-4-1

You compare # of reg app, 34 > 31, different but pretty close; then you have 1 NC for FS compared to 7 more CWS App for Clemson.
How much should the National Championship be worth, and does 7 CWS and 3 reg app equal and pass it?

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

I can't believe that we have more regional appearances than LSU.

I think the things that need to be considered are:

National Championships- 5 points
CWS appearances- 4 points
SR appearances- 3 points
Regional host- 1 point
Regional appearances- 2 points
Conference Tournament Championships- 1 point
Regular season Championships- 1 point

Basically, I would use the point total as I have assigned it, and then just add it up and see who has the most points. The most you could get in a season is 17. For example, in 2007, we made a Regional- 2 points, a SR- 3 points, and then the CWS- 4 points, so for 2007 we made a grand total of 9 points.

The reason I made the Regional host only 1 point was because those are sometimes political, and sometimes the host isn't the 1 seed. I didn't do SR host because again, you could have two #2 seeds.

That's how I would do it, but you're certainly free to do it however.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

But the reason I tried to stay away from the "middle area" i.e. the time from getting a regional appearance to making Omaha
is because the format has changed so much over the past 50 years.
As you said now the top point total you could earn in a season was 17, but then compare that to any team pre-1999, and you could only earn 14 pts max
I'm very hesitant to throw in any conference championships at all, even though you discounted them to only 1 pt..so very small piece,because I guess I'm looking more at the post-season achievements which is what is the most important
when it comes down to it all. But the variables of conference strength and the fact not all have a conference tournament could really skew things out.

One other idea thrown out was to but more emphasis on the finish in the CWS, add a scale of pts in between for runner-up, 3rd, and 4th...etc
*edit( and yes, it is crazy we do have more than LSU, but they do it big win they make it.

LSU's line 23-15-6
MSU 28-8-0

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

CWS Championship: 10
CWS Runner Up: 7
CWS Semi-finals: 5
CWS Apperance (also Regional/Super Regional Championship): 3
Regional Appearance: 1

I would like to twist the data around sorta like this. Say a NC worth 10, and its worth is never diminished, but say the longhorns 2nd place now be worth 9, but say Alabamas 1997 2nd place finish would be depreciated from 9 to 7.2 (9/10's >5 years but <11 years; 8/10's for >11 but < 16; 6/10's for > 16 but <22 ; 4/10's for >22 years but < 36; and finally 3/10's for > 36.

To simplify that,11 years (1999-2009) is the period of the super regional format.
22 years period was from 1988 to 1998, when the field was expanded to 64 teams in the old regional format.
The period between 36 and 22 (1975-1987) was when Regionals were first created and different sizes and formats happened.
Before 36 years (1974 and before) was when Districts were the format.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

that occasionally jumped into the top 8 for most of Polk & McMahon's tenure. I'm guessing like from 1977-2001. After Polk's return we have slipped to a below average SEC team that had occasional flashes. We won the SECT under Polk one year when we finished 7th (?) in regular season. We made it to CWS in 2007. What did we finish that year in the SEC? I noticed one time that we had finished #2 in regionals numerous times. If we had only managed a couple NCs.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

in my mind anyway is the program`s upside potential. College baseball is far more important to our fanbase than it is at most schools and if we can get it turned around and start winning again it`ll gain momentum quickly. For many of us for many years it`s the only program we had to be proud of and the foundation is still there.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

That one is a head-scratcher. Maybe a better way to break it down is to somehow determine when the "modern age" of college baseball began, and the NCAA baseball tournament began to take the format that has evolved into the current playoff we know today. I guess you would have to assign an arbitrary year (e.g. 1970, '75, '80), though I'm not at all familiar with the overall history of college baseball, save that I know the CWS has been in Omaha since the 1950s.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

they felt they had to put some northern teams in the tournament and the Gophers were usually the best of the worst.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

Go figure.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

is one I brought up as a reason why to diminish aged results.. their days of glory are gone by, no CWS appearances since 1977, and all 3 national titles are over 40 years ago (56,60,64)

I'm already working on this in steps and will post up some stuff as I finish.
First off will be a strict ranking based on my original point scale of 1-5-10 based on Reg App, CWS App, and NC.
This will show the problems with doing it in a simple manner, from there I will move to add more pt values for other CWS finishes, and then finally diminish the results based upon a time period.
and any other tweaks as other ideas come about.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

Reg Apps.
1949-54-56-57-60-61-62-63-64-66-67-68-72-74-75-76-77-78-
79-80-81-85-86-88-91-93-97-2004-05-07-08

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

We come with these results. MSU is 17 out of 108 Teams who have made it to the CWS
in a format in which I assign 1 point for every regional appearance, 5 points for a CWS Appearance, and 10 points for a National Championship.
110 Teams are list, as I also included ECU and USA who have made 23 and 24 Reg App without a trip to Omaha.

	Team	Reg App	(x1)	CWS App	(x5)	NC	(x10)	Total
1	University of Texas	53	53.00	33	165.00	6	60.00	278.00
2	University of Southern Cal	36	36.00	21	105.00	12	120.00	261.00
3	University of Miami (FL)	38	38.00	23	115.00	4	40.00	193.00
4	Arizona State University	33	33.00	21	105.00	5	50.00	188.00
5	Louisiana State University	23	23.00	15	75.00	6	60.00	158.00
6	Cal-State Fullerton	31	31.00	16	80.00	4	40.00	151.00
T-7	Florida State University	47	47.00	19	95.00	0	0.00	142.00
T-7	Oklahoma State	37	37.00	19	95.00	1	10.00	142.00
9	University of Arizona	30	30.00	15	75.00	3	30.00	135.00
10	Stanford University	28	28.00	16	80.00	2	20.00	128.00
11	University of Oklahoma	31	31.00	9	45.00	2	20.00	96.00
12	Clemson	34	34.00	11	55.00	0	0.00	89.00
13	University of Minnesota	29	29.00	5	25.00	3	30.00	84.00
14	University of Michigan	21	21.00	7	35.00	2	20.00	76.00
15	Wichita State	27	27.00	7	35.00	1	10.00	72.00
16	Northern Colorado	21	21.00	10	50.00	0	0.00	71.00
17	Mississippi State University	28	28.00	8	40.00	0	0.00	68.00
T-18	University of North Carolina	24	24.00	8	40.00	0	0.00	64.00
T-18	University of South Carolina	24	24.00	8	40.00	0	0.00	64.00
T-20	Saint Johns University	31	31.00	6	30.00	0	0.00	61.00
T-20	Fresno State	31	31.00	4	20.00	1	10.00	61.00
T-20	University of Missouri	21	21.00	6	30.00	1	10.00	61.00
23	Rice University	15	15.00	7	35.00	1	10.00	60.00
24	University of California	10	10.00	5	25.00	2	20.00	55.00
25	University of Arkansas	21	21.00	6	30.00	0	0.00	51.00
26	University of Maine	15	15.00	7	35.00	0	0.00	50.00
27	Oregon State University	10	10.00	4	20.00	2	20.00	50.00
T-28	University of Florida	24	24.00	5	25.00	0	0.00	49.00
T-28	Ohio State University	19	19.00	4	20.00	1	10.00	49.00
T-28	University of Georgia	9	9.00	6	30.00	1	10.00	49.00
T-31	Texas A&M	25	25.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	45.00
T-31	Pepperdine	25	25.00	2	10.00	1	10.00	45.00
T-33	University of Alabama	17	17.00	5	25.00	0	0.00	42.00
T-33	Penn State University	17	17.00	5	25.00	0	0.00	42.00
35	Western Michigan	11	11.00	6	30.00	0	0.00	41.00
T-36	University of Connecticut	15	15.00	5	25.00	0	0.00	40.00
T-36	Holy Cross	10	10.00	4	20.00	1	10.00	40.00
T-38	Georgia Tech	24	24.00	3	15.00	0	0.00	39.00
T-38	Southern Illinois	14	14.00	5	25.00	0	0.00	39.00
40	Long Beach State	18	18.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	38.00
41	University of Auburn	17	17.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	37.00
T-42	Washington State University	15	15.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	35.00
T-42	Seton Hall	15	15.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	35.00
T-42	University of Mississippi	15	15.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	35.00
45	Harvard University	14	14.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	34.00
T-46	Notre Dame	21	21.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	31.00
T-46	Wake Forest	11	11.00	2	10.00	1	10.00	31.00
T-48	Baylor University	15	15.00	3	15.00	0	0.00	30.00
T-48	Lafayette	10	10.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	30.00
T-48	Boston College	10	10.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	30.00
T-51	University of Tulane	19	19.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	29.00
T-51	University of Tennessee	9	9.00	4	20.00	0	0.00	29.00
T-53	North Carolina State	22	22.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	27.00
T-53	University of Houston	17	17.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	27.00
T-53	University of Nebraska	12	12.00	3	15.00	0	0.00	27.00
56	Oral Roberts	21	21.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	26.00
T-57	Brigham Young University	15	15.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	25.00
T-57	UCLA	15	15.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	25.00
59	University of South Alabama	24	24.00	0	0.00	0	0.00	24.00
T-60	East Carolina University	23	23.00	0	0.00	0	0.00	23.00
T-60	Temple University	13	13.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	23.00
T-62	Georgia Southern	11	11.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	21.00
T-62	University of Massachusetts	11	11.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	21.00
T-64	Rutgers University	15	15.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	20.00
T-64	University of Delaware	15	15.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	20.00
T-64	Duke University	5	5.00	3	15.00	0	0.00	20.00
67	University of New Orleans	14	14.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	19.00
68	Texas-Pan American	13	13.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	18.00
T-69	Rider	12	12.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	17.00
T-69	University of Hawaii	12	12.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	17.00
T-69	Citadel	12	12.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	17.00
T-69	University of Tulsa	7	7.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	17.00
T-69	Eastern Michigan	7	7.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	17.00
T-74	Santa Clara	11	11.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	16.00
T-74	University of Louisiana-Lafayette	11	11.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	16.00
T-74	Bradley	6	6.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	16.00
T-77	New York University	5	5.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	15.00
T-77	University of Southern Mississippi	10	10.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	15.00
T-77	Princeton	10	10.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	15.00
T-77	University of Ohio	10	10.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	15.00
T-77	Springfield	5	5.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	15.00
T-77	Yale	5	5.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	15.00
83	University of Virginia	9	9.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	14.00
T-84	Loyola Marymount	8	8.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	13.00
T-84	Creighton	8	8.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	13.00
T-84	Iowa State University	3	3.00	2	10.00	0	0.00	13.00
T-87	Indiana State University	7	7.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	12.00
T-87	Missouri State	7	7.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	12.00
T-87	Northeastern	7	7.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	12.00
T-87	James Madison	7	7.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	12.00
91	Dartmouth	6	6.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	11.00
T-92	UC-Irvine	5	5.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	10.00
T-92	Ithaca	5	5.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	10.00
T-92	Saint Louis	5	5.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	10.00
T-95	Wyoming	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	Utah	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	San Jose State	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	University of Kansas	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	Cal- State LA	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	University of Louisville	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	Michigan State University	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
T-95	Colgate	4	4.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	9.00
103	University of Iowa	3	3.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	8.00
T-104	New Hampshire	2	2.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	7.00
T-104	Rollins	2	2.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	7.00
T-104	University of Oregon	2	2.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	7.00
T-107	Syracuse	1	1.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	6.00
T-107	Tufts	1	1.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	6.00
T-107	University of Wisconsin	1	1.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	6.00
T-107	Colorado State	1	1.00	1	5.00	0	0.00	6.00

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

My thinking is, a program like Minnesota that was great in a different era would credit for what they've done. But my thinking is if you're a program that's been consistently strong like Texas, in theory, you would continue to win conference championships, whereas St.John's in all likelihood probably has stopped winning them, and then it would come out in the wash and put programs like Texas into proper perspective as to what they've achieved over a period of time.

I think the biggest problem with this is the current format is only about 10 years old. And a school that has 12 NC's like USC is possibly going to look worse than a school like North Carolina, when that really shouldn't be the case.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

Dave Winfield and Paul Molitor, who are both HOF players, and Terry Steinbach, Denny Neagle, and for Braves fans Greg Olson. Those are guys off of the top of my head.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

Texas will be at the top no matter what formula I put in of any kind almost...they have success in every area and on a consistent basis.
The only thing they lack of at all is the overall national titles held by usc. but the OVERWHELMING success in every other
area pushes them way by USC.

As far as programs as Minnesota and St John go, they are still winning conference championships...
I cant find exact details for years and how often, but I see St John won the regular season in 2008, and Minnesota won the Big 10 regular season 4 times in the past 10 years and the tournament twice.

As far as USC look worse than UNC, that would not be the case.. A National Championships value will always be the highest at 10
and even with just a CWS appearance counting 5, USC had 261..UNC had 64. (FSU had 142)

I respect your opinion because you know baseball. But have to disagree with using conference results. Should St Johns or Minnesota get the same respect that LSU gets for winning the SEC?

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

1. We are not, and other than the 1980s, never have been a top 10 baseball program. Sorry guys, but we're just not.

2. For most of the NCAA tournament history (up until about 1990) the regionals were truly regional. That's why schools like Minnesota, Maine and St. Johns have so many regional and CWS appearances. They never had to compete against schools from the South and the Pacific Coast.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

thatsbaseball wrote:
in my mind anyway is the program`s upside potential. College baseball is far more important to our fanbase than it is at most schools and if we can get it turned around and start winning again it`ll gain momentum quickly. For many of us for many years it`s the only program we had to be proud of and the foundation is still there.

It's a welcoming sign around here these days.

My Recent Posts · 06/25/09

That's the year the NCAA started letting any 8 teams make it to the college world series. Before that, the country was divided into 8 distrivts and 1 from each district would make it. That's why all those Northern schools and Northern Colorado have all those appearances. It's hard for pre-1975 baseball to be legit, because of that.
If you go by post-1975 only, here is the number of CWS appearances:

22	Miami (FL)
17	Texas
16	Cal State Fullerton
15	Arizona State
15	LSU
14	Florida State
14	Stanford
11	Oklahoma State
9	Clemson
8	South Carolina
7	Mississippi State
7	Rice
7	Wichita State
6	Arizona
6	Arkansas
6	Georgia
6	Maine
6	North Carolina
5	Florida
5	Michigan
5	Oklahoma
5	USC
4	Alabama
4	Long Beach State
3	Auburn
3	Baylor
3	California
3	Fresno State
3	Georgia Tech
3	Nebraska
3	Oregon State
3	Tennessee
2	Eastern Michigan
2	Pepperdine
2	St. John's (NY)
2	Texas A&M
2	Tulane
1	Cal State-Los Angeles
1	Citadel
1	Connecticut
1	Creighton
1	Georgia Southern
1	Hawaii
1	Indiana State
1	James Madison
1	Kansas
1	Louisiana-Lafayette
1	Louisville
1	Loyola Marymount
1	Minnesota
1	Missouri State
1	New Orleans
1	Notre Dame
1	Oral Roberts
1	San Jose State
1	Seton Hall
1	Southern Illinois
1	Southern Miss
1	Temple
1	UC Irvine
1	UCLA
1	Virginia
1	Washington State

and CWS championships:

6	LSU
4	Miami (FL)
4	Texas
4	Cal State Fullerton
3	Arizona
2	Arizona State
2	Stanford
2	USC
2	Oregon State
1	Rice
1	Wichita State
1	Georgia
1	Oklahoma
1	Fresno State
1	Pepperdine

My Recent Posts · 06/26/09

Berryhill. Good God I love that '92 Braves team. Francisco Cabrera knocking in Sid Bream will never be forgotten.

My Recent Posts · 06/26/09

It certainly changes a LOT of things when doing it that way...
But it also changes it from being about college baseball history, to more of college baseball history since 1975, and if you wanted to do selective history why not
only go with the past 11 years since the tournament majorily changed to the super regional format with national seeds.

I do agree that things changed majorly between our first cws appearance in 1971 and our next in 1979.
But they should both be included in ranking the history.

I'm trying different ways to use the data.. as I'm about to repost my original model which was strictly, 1pt, 5pt, 10pt (Reg App, CWS App, NC)
But I flew the data is very skewed because of great success by some schools in the periods you mention of pre-1975, schools such as Minnesota and Northern Colorado.

I think my ultimate goal is to give more strength to the results of the past 22 years (since expansion to 64 teams) and diminish the value of the older results..EXCEPT
a National Championship. a NC is always a NC and does not lose its value.

My Recent Posts · 06/26/09

attempted to field a competitve baseball team for years. Kinda like us in the SEC years ago. But the fact is they got in the tournament a number of times out of the NCAA`s attempt to keep all the regions of the country interested in baseball. Those are nice players you mention but overall they never had enough good ones on the team at one time to compete day in and day out. They used to have to come south and spend weeks at a time in the spring to get in a few games because they couldn`t play at home til probably May. They actually did a good job given their geographic constraints.

Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/25/09 03:52 PM	ScoobaDawg
First of all	06/25/09 04:26 PM	Todd4State
Thanks Todd	06/25/09 04:52 PM	ScoobaDawg
This..and That.	06/25/09 06:11 PM	ScoobaDawg
LSU?	06/26/09 10:58 AM	Fresno Bob
Yes but	06/26/09 11:24 AM	Todd4State
That's about right...we WERE a top 15 program....	06/25/09 06:41 PM	SLUdog
We`re probably still a top top 25 program but the thing about us	06/25/09 07:04 PM	thatsbaseball
I like your positive attitude	06/25/09 11:32 PM	GhostOfJackie
How does Minnesota have 29 regional appearances?	06/25/09 07:13 PM	wbc40
Weak competition and NCAA political correctness	06/25/09 07:20 PM	thatsbaseball
They've produced	06/25/09 10:38 PM	Todd4State
Good call. Greg Olson deserves props, but he split time with Damon	06/26/09 12:45 AM	wbc40
They were the only team in the Big Ten that even	06/26/09 06:29 AM	thatsbaseball
St. Johns with 31 is even more bizarre.	06/25/09 07:39 PM	State82
they been doing it for a while..	06/25/09 07:56 PM	ScoobaDawg
Minnesota...	06/25/09 07:43 PM	ScoobaDawg
That's the biggest reason I would include Championships	06/25/09 10:33 PM	Todd4State
Re: Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/25/09 10:55 PM	ScoobaDawg
I think there's something to it	06/26/09 10:41 AM	Todd4State
In a 1-5-10 Pt format	06/25/09 08:38 PM	ScoobaDawg
I think we need to add some sort of "last 10 years" or "last 15 years" factor...	06/26/09 11:58 AM	8Dog
also, why do regionals get points but not supers?**	06/26/09 12:00 PM	Optimus Prime 4
The one problem with that is...	06/26/09 12:08 PM	8Dog
True, but you are also weighting teams that only made regionals the same as	06/26/09 12:19 PM	Optimus Prime 4
True, but should there really be any significant reward...	06/26/09 12:39 PM	8Dog
8D...and Op4	06/26/09 12:26 PM	ScoobaDawg
I just don't think weighting a 4 seed in a regional the same as a finalist in a super	06/26/09 12:55 PM	Optimus Prime 4
A couple of points here.	06/25/09 10:59 PM	patdog
Top 20 is nothing to be ashamed of	06/26/09 10:44 AM	Todd4State
Re: Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/26/09 11:15 AM	ScoobaDawg
I'm actually more surprised	06/26/09 11:21 AM	Todd4State
Right now, we're not even a top 40 program.	06/26/09 11:18 AM	patdog
Its ugly..	06/26/09 11:46 AM	ScoobaDawg
Any formula should start inm 1975	06/25/09 11:54 PM	QuaoarsKing
Very interesting...	06/26/09 06:09 AM	ScoobaDawg
Re: Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/26/09 08:15 AM	NavinJohnson
Re: Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/26/09 08:32 AM	ScoobaDawg
I think program consistancy is important...	06/26/09 08:33 AM	msudogsrule01
How about -50	06/26/09 10:36 AM	Todd4State
V2....	06/28/09 11:41 PM	ScoobaDawg
Awesome job so far	06/29/09 01:09 AM	Todd4State
Thanks...	06/29/09 02:23 AM	ScoobaDawg
Re: Well lets try this out..college baseball history	06/29/09 02:57 AM	BulldogLegacy
I'm guessing	06/29/09 08:07 AM	Todd4State
V3 - Texas is overtaken...	06/29/09 08:05 AM	ScoobaDawg
V 3.1 - This seems more accurate	07/02/09 07:24 PM	ScoobaDawg

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Well lets try this out..college baseball history

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